Kolmo Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) This is a debrief after past year Red Flag exercises in Nellis AFB, Nevada, in which Su-30 's from Indian Air Force participated as "courtesy guests", after the COPE India exercises. (They are refering about the 2006 edition, I guess). About engines. Russian engines are not nearly as reliable as american ones, and IAF is really concerned about this. These engines are particularly prone to fail, so they must keep a 1 minute of separation between take off's. In addition, every time an egine fails, they must send it to Russia, and wait for Russia to return it back. How do they fly? The pilot in the debriefing makes mention about a video in youtube, in which you can see a Su-30MK during a demo flight, making exactly the same maneouvres than an F-22 Raptor. That's ok for an airshow, but in "real life", that's the closest you're going to get. It's true than the Su-30MK is quite impressive when compared against F-15's and F-16's, with a better radar, better weapons, more thrust, and a larger range. Nevertheless, all those advantages disappear when compared with the F-22 Raptor. At first, we (the USAF) were very concerned, because during the COPE India exercises, the IAF was using its best pilots and personnel. On the other side, the USAF sent its pilots in a ratio of 80% of unexperienced pilots, and a 20% of experienced ones. But, in addition, it's worth to mention than this 20% had to share their duty on their regular deployment while flying, at the same time, in COPE India. Now, when IAF came to Red Flag, they sent a regular operational Su-30 unit, and the ratio of un/experienced pilots was a balanced 50-50%. That 50% share of experienced pilots were not flying the Su-30, but the Mig-21 Bison (upgraded version for export), portraying an advanced radar (Phazotron Kopyo-Spear), capable of using SARH missiles (R-27), and a very effective jamming pod, which makes the airplane nearly invisible to "legacy" radars onboard the F-15 and F-16's. Besides, the Mig 21 had the ability to fly at 110 knots, 16º nose up, keeping this from 10.000 to 20.000 feets. How did the USAF came out of that confrontation? : they dominated. And they did so, not with a clean configured F-15, but with F-15's with drop tanks and CFT configuration, 4 missiles onboard, etc. IAF's pilots were amazed, to the point that after 3 days they said: "we don't need to keep doing this 1v1 stuff anymore ", while in India they kept looking for the 1v1 merge once and again, since they knew they had the advantage. Vector thrust. In the Raptor, the vector thrust works only in the pitch plane. In the Su-30 instead, the vectoring-thrust nozzles work making a "V" shape, which causes a lot of drag during a close turn, making his nose sink. Fine, so what we do? The Raptor can sustain a 28º/s turn, while the F-15 can turn 21º/s sustained. Well, besides that, and because of thrust-vectoring, when we (USAF pilots again ) were fighting against the Raptor with the F-15 and F-16 saw the Raptor coming around the corner in a close turn like that (28º/s), we knew that after a while the Raptor would enter in a "post stall maneuvering", during which, it would start to turn in a circle with the center in a wingtip, with his nose up and tail down. When you're in the Eagle or the Viper and see this, you inmediately go vertical, because you know he (the Raptor) is not going to be able to go up after you, and then you have the only chance against him. And that's it. With the Su-30 instead... well, NO PROBLEM!!! Big Airplane, big RCS, big drag. But he's jamming, so your missiles won't work against him, and you're forced to engage him in visual. And that's the end of the story for him, since the Su-30 can sustain a turn of just 22-23º/s, nowhere near the Raptor. So those pilots who have been fighting against the Raptor, find the Su-30 pretty easy to defeat in a dogfight, since when he tries to turn, he falls out of the sky so fast (because of the drag), than you don't need to go vertical. He does it for you (but going down). Then you go after him, pull the trigger, and bring their brains out. <_< Please NOTE: This is just a (bad) translation and resume, I don't necessarily share this opinion... There is a second video on this debriefing. I'll post it later. Or maybe I won't. :P Edited April 10, 2009 by Kolmo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amalahama Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 F-15 dominating Su-30? You're kidding High AOA capability is not the only important thing in a Dogfight. Su-30 and, in general, Su-27 family have a very nice AoA peak, but other US fighters are capable of controlled flight at higher AoA than Sukhois (F/A-18 mainly). Regards!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolmo Posted April 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 F-15 dominating Su-30? You're kidding WAWAWAH!!! I'm just the messenger here! Anyway, what would you expect he to say: "Uhm... yup, the Su-30's OWNED us"... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darkness Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 F-15 dominating Su-30? You're kidding WAWAWAH!!! I'm just the messenger here! Anyway, what would you expect he to say: "Uhm... yup, the Su-30's OWNED us"... ? I agree. It is well known that indian Su-30 in USA were well below its top possibilities because of the hidden information they don´t want to give to the United States. They were forbidden to use the radar in its all capacity and the weapons were disabled in many ways, just dogfight and short BVR range. The hadn´t datalink communications enabled too. So the conclusions are far beyond the real data that could be got from real combat fighting. But the worst thing I see in this report is the need to shoot down the Su-30 with words and distorsions all the time. Su-30s are known for being an impressive air combat warplane, and I can understand of data been analyzed in front F-15 and F-22, but this exercise was not really a good example, too many systems were down in the Su-30 and to many things forbidden to use for the indian pilots to try to get some good information about all this stuff. Fear is what I see from the text, if only we could see some real exercises, but that will have to wait for now I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolmo Posted April 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 But the worst thing I see in this report is the need to shoot down the Su-30 with words and distorsions all the time. Laughs and clinging glasses sound in the background included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amalahama Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Su-30 is not Su-27, like F-15E is not F-15C. Su 30 (without TVC) is considerably less agile than vanilla Su-27SK. It has the same engine and wings, but his weight has grown considerably. It's focused to AG, not to AA. I don't see any strange. F-22 should beat it easily. It's life law :D Regards!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolmo Posted April 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) Su-30 is not Su-27, like F-15E is not F-15C. Su 30 (without TVC) is considerably less agile than vanilla Su-27SK. It has the same engine and wings, but his weight has grown considerably. It's focused to AG, not to AA. I don't see any strange. F-22 should beat it easily. It's life law :D Regards!! Er... but the Su-30 MKI that fantas'payer(*) is refering to in the debrief DOES have TVC... doesn't it? Or at least he's talking about it as if it really does... :unsure: (*) pagafantas (sic). BTW... there's something maybe I misunderstood, or I'm not sure: does a vectoring nozzle create drag when moving??? :unsure: Edited April 10, 2009 by Kolmo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amalahama Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Su-30 is not Su-27, like F-15E is not F-15C. Su 30 (without TVC) is considerably less agile than vanilla Su-27SK. It has the same engine and wings, but his weight has grown considerably. It's focused to AG, not to AA. I don't see any strange. F-22 should beat it easily. It's life law :D Regards!! Er... but the Su-30 MKI that fantas'payer(*) is refering to in the debrief DOES have TVC... doesn't it? Or at least he's talking about it as if it really does... :unsure: (*) pagafantas (sic). BTW... there's something maybe I misunderstood, or I'm not sure: does a vectoring nozzle create drag when moving??? :unsure: Yes, It supposed to have it, but I've heard that IAF dismantled it for maintenance purposes (yeah, TVC is expensive to maintain). I have not idea if TVC are on Su-30 during RF exercise. TVC drag is practically despicable. Regards!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darkness Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Su-30 is quite powerful to be a real competitor against any other fighter, even with its two seat configuration. It is not intented just for A/G but for both A/A and A/G. Su-34 is developed for A/G. BTW... there's something maybe I misunderstood, or I'm not sure: does a vectoring nozzle create drag when moving??? :unsure: Yes of course, any change in direction creates drag, if it is very hard you create a big drag, it is like when driving your car. If you change your way hardly you will find a hard force. This is avoided with powerful engines but the drag always exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKULA_OPTIMUS Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Hmmm, so, one f-22 can beat a Su-30mki in close combat, but a F-18 can beat the raptor... cofusing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amalahama Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Su-30 is quite powerful ... Yes yes... quite powerful... then what's the real reason that India is looking for buying a new generation fighter? About drag, I think Kosmo referred to TVC drag only, not total drag from aircraft during a maneouver (at the end, all aircraft generate big amount of drag during post-stall maneouvers...) Hmmm, so, one f-22 can beat a Su-30mki in close combat, but a F-18 can beat the raptor... cofusing... Yes, and Mig-21 can beat all of them, except Mirage F1 Regards!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darkness Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 I think it is quite difficult to buy something better than a Su-30MKI nowadays, every one talks about the limitations of the russian fighter, but no one has seen it in real combat or in simulations near real combat. And maybe indians want to buy some other fighters, I know one that can beat the Su-30: the Eurofighter But I can sinceresly say that flying in an Eurofighter wouldn´t want to meet a Su-30MKI, you can bet on it. P.D.: I didn´t say anything about the most powerful fighter in the world, the MiG-21, but you won´t have to wait for long :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolmo Posted April 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 About drag, I think Kosmo referred to TVC drag only, not total drag from aircraft during a maneouver (at the end, all aircraft generate big amount of drag during post-stall maneouvers...) Kosmo? That... got... really... deep... inside... of me... But yup, I was talking about the drag generated by the thrust vectoring nozzles themselves. The pilot in the video seems to maintain that's the true reason because of which it's so easy to beat the Su-30MKI... Well, that and the lower sustained turn rate. P.D.: I didn´t say anything about the most powerful fighter in the world, the MiG-21, but you won´t have to wait for long lol.gif lol.gif Even the pilot in the video seems to praise the Mig 21. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amalahama Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 About drag, I think Kosmo referred to TVC drag only, not total drag from aircraft during a maneouver (at the end, all aircraft generate big amount of drag during post-stall maneouvers...) Kosmo? That... got... really... deep... inside... of me... But yup, I was talking about the drag generated by the thrust vectoring nozzles themselves. The pilot in the video seems to maintain that's the true reason because of which it's so easy to beat the Su-30MKI... Well, that and the lower sustained turn rate. Hey, kosmo fit better with your personality :P Pilots... What do they know about drag? Better to leave this kind of things to people that really know air behaviour However, TVC has a strong penalisation in weight and CG center... Definitively, these ceramic shell aren't light precisely, and move them quickly requires powerful actuators, usually hydraulics ones. You have put heavy weight at the rear, so your CG is moved afterward, making your airplane more unstable, and you need more tail control surface deflection, which generate more drag... Yes, you can realise that mount TVC and don't use it is a bad business Regards!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresco Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Douglas Fairbanks, Boeing C.O., to Gen. Maj. Smith, USAF C.O.: Not F22 not even milk´s We need the Machos of Kimpo (with accent in the "O"). They can knock down one SU30MK with a well directed fart. Do something, or we will not sell a male prostitute F35. Now only Jhamalajama does propaganda to us. To this step, the Russians and the Europeans they are going to place his planes up to to the Australians....... Go Machos, go Fresh+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolmo Posted April 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) However, TVC has a strong penalisation in weight and CG center... Definitively, these ceramic shell aren't light precisely, and move them quickly requires powerful actuators, usually hydraulics ones. You have put heavy weight at the rear, so your CG is move afterward, making your airplane more unstable, and you need more tail control surface deflection, which generate more drag... OK, but then again, the Raptor must deal with all these penalization factors because of TVC too... Are the Raptor engines that much powerful than the Su-30 ones? Well, yup, I answer myself: Raptor: Powerplant: 2× Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 Pitch Thrust vectoring turbofans, 35,000+ lb (156+ kN) each Su-30: # Powerplant: 2× AL-31FL low-bypass turbofans * Dry thrust: 7,600 kgf (74.5 kN, 16,750 lbf) each * Thrust with afterburner: 12,500 kgf (122.58 kN, 27,560 lbf) each I'd never thought there was such a huge difference between both engines... Douglas Fairbanks, Boeing C.O., to Gen. Maj. Smith, USAF C.O.: Not F22 not even milk´s We need the Machos of Kimpo (with accent in the "O"). They can knock down one SU30MK with a well directed fart. Do something, or we will not sell a male prostitute F35. Now only Jhamalajama does propaganda to us. To this step, the Russians and the Europeans they are going to place his planes up to to the Australians....... Go Machos, go Fresh+ :gato: Edited April 10, 2009 by Kolmo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amalahama Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 IMHO, I never had put TVC in Raptors, but well...TVC is eye-catching in air festivals, and I suppose advertising is important too. But it should be noted that F-35, EFA, Gripen, Rafale or Su-27BM (definitive Flanker for Russian Air force), neither of them have TVC... Regards!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKULA_OPTIMUS Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 But it should be noted that F-35, EFA, Gripen, Rafale or Su-27BM (definitive Flanker for Russian Air force), neither of them have TVC... They were removed? I remember saw them on the prototype.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amalahama Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 But it should be noted that F-35, EFA, Gripen, Rafale or Su-27BM (definitive Flanker for Russian Air force), neither of them have TVC... They were removed? I remember saw them on the prototype.... That is not Su-27BM. It's a Su-35BM. Regards!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKULA_OPTIMUS Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Are you sure my friend? I thought that the Su-27Bm was the same thing as Su-35Bm :unsure: Maybe you´re referring to su-27SM.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amalahama Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Are you sure my friend? I thought that the Su-27Bm was the same thing as Su-35Bm :unsure: Maybe you´re referring to su-27SM.... I am not sure, but operational Su-27BM have AL41F1A engine, which has not TVC nozzle. In essence, Su-27BM is a upgrade of actual Su-27SM with a PESA radar, a little rear cone radar and several EW upgrades. Some sources talk about some RCS improvement with the use of RAM material, some changes in vertical stabilizator (smaller than actual Su-35) and engine inlets. Others talk about 3D TVC nozzle, but it looks like this will be only applied to new-made aircrafts, not modified ones. Regards!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKULA_OPTIMUS Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Aha.... then, the SU-27Bm and the Su-35Bm are different aircrafts?... what a mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amalahama Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Aha.... then, the SU-27Bm and the Su-35Bm are different aircrafts?... what a mess. Mmmmm not really, It looks like Su-27BM are modified airframes and Su-35BM are new ones. Differences between two are mainly structural (Su-27BM don't have modified engine inlets and smaller vertical fin - and Su-27BM is supposed to not have TVC), but the rest both are identical. However, I prefer some Russian army expert confirm this fact (I found very disperse and opposite information over the web) Regards!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolmo Posted April 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 (edited) Here's the 2nd part. [...] talking about the Raptor and his abilities, and the way other USAF pilots learnt how to defeat him. Does this mean it's better they (USAF) stop buying more Raptors now? (after all, other pilots know how to shoot him down). Well, no, it's only a matter of time since Raptor pilots will learn to no get there (post stall maneuvres among other things), unless they really have to. Frenchs and the Rafale. 90% of the times a french was following an indian Su-30, as fast as the Su-30 started countermeasures or evasive maneuvres, the frenchs just made half turn and moved away from him. So they never really went into the merge. As anybody here who has been deployed in Irak knows, anytime we americans have been into some peace keeping engagement, they (frenchs) have been keeping in the background while stating "yes, we're participating in the war too". Andbasically that's all they've been doing while here in Red Flag, they've been watching the whole fighting from above, and using all the electronic devices in their new planes to get to know how our radars work. Indians' problems in Red Flag. In general terms, the indians were very professionals. They never flown out of the predefined airspace, they had zero training-code violations. We are very impressed of them because of that. The only problem with the indians is truly a problem of their own: they killed a lot of friends (blue on blue fire), especially during the second week of Red Flag, when the actual campaign really started. The problem was their systems had not an identification capability, as frenchs and south-koreans did. In fact, frenchs and south-koreans were using brand new F-15 identification key-codes for their airplanes. So frenchs, south-koreans and USAF forces had the ability to receive all the information generated by the AWACS during the engagements via datalink. The indians, meanwhile, came with their russian made datalinks, so they were running around with no computer image of where the fight is. So, when they called AWACS: "hey, I've got a contact infront of my nose at 22 miles, is it friend or hostile???", AWACS replied: "there's not any contact in a 40 miles range in front of you", and they cried "FALSE!!!". So, because of all this, their first losses were becauseof blue on blue fire, and we were capable even of hear it: "I've just killed a friendly", and we replied "do you know what? it's better you died than I die". We were very concerned of this high rate of friendly fraticide, because of the way Red Flag Nellis is intended to work: 4 coallitions going together to war. We realised we could go together with thesouth-koreans, the frenchs, the brits, the aussies and even the germans, but not with the indians. In fact, the results of the indians were far better in Red Flag Alaska, where there were not coallitions, and they had less problems trying to identificate friends or hostiles. So, we learnt in a big way that if we had to build a coallition with the indians, that was not going to work. Questions and Answers. Somebody among the audience makes a question about the Su-30 radar, and the debirefing responsible states that the radar onboard the Su-30 is technology from the 80's: "it's an ESA radar (I've checked that, and it's actaully PESA, but I'm not quite sure about the difference, if any :unsure: ). The difference with the radar in the Raptor is that the last one is an "active analogic scan radar", while the first one is just "analogic scan radar". It's just a letter, an "A", but there is a huge difference thou, since the ESA radar has more technical problems when it comes to find and discriminate targets. Another question: "Is the F-15 the last dogfighter airplane? We know the Raptor is terrific on the fight, but it is terrific on the costs aswell". Answer: "I think the Raptor is the next great dogfighter we have. It's fast, it's maneuverable, it's got a nice jamming pod, etc. The only real problem with the Raptor is we can't carry too many missiles". And the last question: "What do you think about the F-35?". Answer: ".... we'll better let that for another discussion". And that's it. Edited April 12, 2009 by Kolmo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKULA_OPTIMUS Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 (edited) 90% of the times a french was following an indian Su-30, as fast as the Su-30 started countermeasures or evasive maneuvres, the frenchs just made half turn and moved away from him. So they never really went into the merge. JUAS, estos siempre igual Oh, sorry, in english: Hohoho, as always.... Edited April 11, 2009 by AKULA_OPTIMUS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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