vencejo Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 (edited) Salud compañeros: Acabo de leerlo. No se si se comentó ya. Como no lo he visto por aquí me arriesgaré a un chorizaco. Weno. La cosa es que RRG y DCS han llegado a un acuerdo para, usando el motor gráfico de DCS, (el nuevo motor gráfico, EDGE), crear un nuevo simulador ambientado en la segunda guerra mundial. Para refrescar la memoria, RRG no es ni mas ni menos que un desarrollador de simuladores aereos, que junto a 1c/Madox Games crearon la saga il2. Si, exacto: RRG es, o eran Luthier y Starshoy. El caso es que Luthier lo ha anunciado en los foros de ED, y aunque nos emplaza al 1 de septiembre para el anuncio oficial, algo ya ha adelantado: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1811384&postcount=153 Hello folks,Wow, what a big thread.Sorry - this whole thing wasn't supposed to be public yet. A singlemisclick on my part set in motion a chain of events of such epicproportions, who could have ever guessed. And well, here we are.I've been posting on a Russian forum a bunch last night since that'swhere the leak came out. Figured I owe it to you guys to actually posteverything in English.Here's what I talked about in Russian yesterday:1. There’s a new project in development between RRG Studios (my company) and Eagle Dynamics.2. We’re making a new WWII flight sim.3. The general approach in the new sim is the same as in DCS: P-51.4. Cockpit workload, cabin systems, levers-buttons-gears, reliance onactual historical manuals, and the flight model, will be the same as inDCS: P-51.5. Modeling of various secondary internal systems, such as modeling thepressure inside each bend in the hydraulics, will be somewhatsimplified.6. The landscape in the new project will be based on EDGE.7. The theater, planeset, screenshots, videos, etc – will come in due time.And here's some new information:1. Myself and a bunch of ED guys are flying in nice tight formation tothe Flying Legends airshow tomorrow. We’ll go TSA on the vintagewarbirds there. There’ll be lots of videos and photos.2. The official project announcement, alongside screenshots, videos,schedules, and the most detailed feature description you’ve ever seen onany flight sim ever, will come no earlier and no later than September1st, 2013. The date is very important for the project. We cannot missit. Be there.Other than that, I won’t be revealing any more details until Sept 1st.I'll hang around here for a few more hours, and then I'm off to Flying Legends until Tuesday. De este, para mí notición, me quedo con los puntos 3 y 4, y además el 6, que significa que podrá estar programado en DX11. Saludos. Edited July 31, 2013 by vencejo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darkness Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Que me meo toa!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver_Dragon Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 (edited) http://www.escuadron69.net/v20/foro/index.php?/topic/56687-antiguo-equipo-il-2cod-se-une-a-dcsw/ Desde el 10 de Julio, Hay que esperar al 1 de Septiembre para noticias oficiales al respecto. Por lo que tambien han comentado, esto correra bajo DCS: World, aunque parezca que es algo independiente (y de paso, ser compatible con DCS: P-51D, FW-190D-9 y futuros flying legends). Edited July 31, 2013 by Silver_Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siberiano Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 El E69 se asocial al SG1 ... el SG1 se asocia a los II/JG52... Algunos JG52 habian salido a un Nuevo Proyecto que a su vez son parte del E69... Los E69 por tanto se integran por parabola al IIJG52 aunque en realidad se asociaron fue al SG1 pero siguen siendo E69..... Que interesante seria, ver que en un mismo equipo estuviese trabajando toda esta gente junta. Crearian el IL-2 de la era moderna.... Mas de una decada de longevidad y aun batalla.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dex815 Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Tras el nicho que ha dejado el CoD ahora todos se quieren sumar al carro parece ser jeje. El CoD salio rancio, ya sería mala suerte que con 2 nuevos simuladores por venir tambien lo estuvieran... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pupo Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 el luthier este por un lado se quedo visto como el salvador del COD, yo personalmente no me ha convencido su trabajo ni la forma de lo hacer. Por otro lado yo tengo el p51, ya ademas del EXCELENTE modelado del motor, la FM DM y el ambiente circundadnte del juego no me han convencido. ME quedo esperando para el 1 de septembro, a ver que sale. (una busca la assinala como el inizio de la guerra, quiza un simulador de la polonia ?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggo Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 (edited) Todo esto suma, ¿no?. Pues chachi. Abajo los monopolios y arriba la competencia XD. Y Siberiano, no hace falta ser tan retorcido. Al final uno se puede llevar bien con los vecinos, incluso hacer amigos. Porque al final tenemos la "suerte" de tener la misma enfermedad, cada uno con sus desviaciones particulares. Y para montar los pifostios que tanto nos gustan necesitamos como mínimo algo de comunicación y empatía. Mejor así, ¿no?. De lo contrario a "jugar" contra las ías. Y eso no mola. Los simuladores al final "viven" si la gente los vuela (obvio). Y las empresas deben trabajar por sacar buenos productos, donde además de potenciales consumidores que les exijan un mínimo de calidad es sano que haya competencia entre ellas, para que no se duerman ni se flipen. Por eso considero una buena noticia que haya quienes arriesguen su tiempo y su dinero en estos proyectos. Y no termino de entender tanto pesimismo y ciertas críticas destructivas en algunos hilos. ¿Para qué?. :tease: Enga. Edited August 1, 2013 by jaggo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siberiano Posted August 1, 2013 Report Share Posted August 1, 2013 No Jaggo, no dije o insinue que ellos se pelearan o lo hagan tipo disputa... Al momento de ejemplificar solo quise expresar lo interesante que seria que toda esta gente trabajaran juntos. Hablar de monopolio en un nicho tan pequeño como lo es la simulación de la IIWW, creo que no aplica, no aplica tampoco los oligopolios. Y es precisamente por eso, que un proyecto "conjunto" seria excelente, porque al final del cuento, como dice tuckie se compran y ya., pero al momento de volar, te encontraras si ambos simuladores tienen suerte y salen bien, una comunidad dividida. En vez de volar 100 personas en un mismo servidor, tendras 50 volando en DCS y 50 volando en el BoS. Y para ejemplo de que en ocasiones los monopolios son buenos, esta precisamente nuestro querido Il2... ó usando otro termino economico, ver la creacion de un nuevo sim de la II WW como un bien publico. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unghaar Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Nada, que se quieren cargar al COD de forma definitiva ahora que lo moddean gratis y otros crean softs para dinámicas xDxD Lo bueno es que al final se podrá elegir lo que más nos guste, y lamentablemente (creo que lo decía Tuckie) algún proyecto acabará como "perdedor". Lo que parece también claro es que por pequeña que sea la comunidad ha empezado la guerra comercial...El que mejor interprete lo que le gustaría a la comunidad de enfermos que somos se llevará el gato al agua y se establecerá de nuevo un monopolio como cita Siberiano. Pero un monopolio a la medida de la comunidad. Y si al final uno es guays pero te saca la pasta, el otro no pero el modelo deja que desear, y el tercero no avanza, nos quedaremos con iL2 que nuestros ojos ya están acostumbrados a los pixeles xD No tengo nada de DCS pero lo que me han comentado junto al proyecto que se presenta es para ponerla tiesa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alado Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Salud compañeros: Acabo de leerlo. No se si se comentó ya. Como no lo he visto por aquí me arriesgaré a un chorizaco. Weno. La cosa es que RRG y DCS han llegado a un acuerdo para, usando el motor gráfico de DCS, (el nuevo motor gráfico, EDGE), crear un nuevo simulador ambientado en la segunda guerra mundial. Para refrescar la memoria, RRG no es ni mas ni menos que un desarrollador de simuladores aereos, que junto a 1c/Madox Games crearon la saga il2. Si, exacto: RRG es, o eran Luthier y Starshoy. El caso es que Luthier lo ha anunciado en los foros de ED, y aunque nos emplaza al 1 de septiembre para el anuncio oficial, algo ya ha adelantado: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1811384&postcount=153 Hello folks,Wow, what a big thread. Sorry - this whole thing wasn't supposed to be public yet. A single misclick on my part set in motion a chain of events of such epic proportions, who could have ever guessed. And well, here we are. I've been posting on a Russian forum a bunch last night since that's where the leak came out. Figured I owe it to you guys to actually post everything in English. Here's what I talked about in Russian yesterday: 1. There’s a new project in development between RRG Studios (my company) and Eagle Dynamics. 2. We’re making a new WWII flight sim. 3. The general approach in the new sim is the same as in DCS: P-51. 4. Cockpit workload, cabin systems, levers-buttons-gears, reliance on actual historical manuals, and the flight model, will be the same as in DCS: P-51. 5. Modeling of various secondary internal systems, such as modeling the pressure inside each bend in the hydraulics, will be somewhat simplified. 6. The landscape in the new project will be based on EDGE. 7. The theater, planeset, screenshots, videos, etc – will come in due time. And here's some new information: 1. Myself and a bunch of ED guys are flying in nice tight formation to the Flying Legends airshow tomorrow. We’ll go TSA on the vintage warbirds there. There’ll be lots of videos and photos. 2. The official project announcement, alongside screenshots, videos, schedules, and the most detailed feature description you’ve ever seen on any flight sim ever, will come no earlier and no later than September 1st, 2013. The date is very important for the project. We cannot miss it. Be there. Other than that, I won’t be revealing any more details until Sept 1st. I'll hang around here for a few more hours, and then I'm off to Flying Legends until Tuesday. De este, para mí notición, me quedo con los puntos 3 y 4, y además el 6, que significa que podrá estar programado en DX11. Saludos. Pa correrse, gracias vencejian por la info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overlord74 Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Si quieren que triunfe alguno que copien el il2 con nuevos graficos y prestaciones mejoradas de los aparatos, adaptando el sim a los tiempos que corren. Que tenga un buen entorno diinamico y campañas dinamicas. El rof tiene algo parecido pero la vedad que es soso. Dcs na de nah... Que tenga un editor intuitivo y practico, si no, no habra misiones a volar. dcs gana con el editor, muy intuitivo y completo, aunque es menos manejable y mas pesado de editar que otros que he probado. Que permita mods. Tanto dcs como 777 los permiten pero entre comillas, y el clod estan en ello... Jugabilidad. El rof por decir algo para un piloto de bombardero es aburrido ya que no hay objetivos. Ambiente e inmersion del jugador acorde con la epoca. P51 en georgia no pega la verdad. Escenarios, situaciones y aviones... Y que no cueste un ojo de la cara. Dcs y 777 van por donde van asi que...aqui gana el clod por goleada. Si apostara, no se yo...lo gratis siempre funciona, eso como minimo. Ademas el factor tiempo es fundamental..me refiero al tiempo que se tarda en tener un escenarios y aviones en vuelo para disfrute de pilotos...estos ultimos van con retraso... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel101 Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 Buenas caballeros, Para los que no sigan las noticias en otros apartados del foro, hace poco ha empezado la financiacion en kickstarter y no van nada mal (en 4 dias el 43% del objetivo marcado) http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944 Si alguien esta interesado en aportar lo que sea, adelante! como nota la opción de los 40€ parece la mas interesante, ya que dará acceso a todos los aviones que saquen con el juego y por ende entiendo yo que incluidos el P-51 y el FW-190 de Eagle Dynamics (con eso ya esta bien amortizado) Saludos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papa_Osi Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 (edited) Nuevos datos que hacen referencia a los módulos de DCS donde por 40$ tienes acceso a todos los aviones que saquen, incluidos el P-51 y el FW-190 de DCS. http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1863250&postcount=1053 Evening everyone! Quote: Originally Posted by SiThSpAwN Can you clarify the free flyables from the licensed ones, is there going to be free ones (or one like DCS World), it seems a little confusing right now... FREE for everyone: P-47SpitfireBf.109KPaid on releaseP-51 (from DCS World)FW-190D (from DCS World)If you back at a $20 level, you can pick a P-51 or FW-190D.If you back at a $40 level, you will have both.If you already own a DCS World P-51 and/or FW-190, then obviously no one wants you to have to pay for anything twice.If we reach stretch goals, then the story changes.Free aircraft list will most likely not change.Backing at $20 still gets you one of the larger variety of paid aircraft.$40 or above still gets you ALL of the initial flyables.None of the aircraft released in future updates are covered by any of this. Quote: Originally Posted by Mainstay I also want to ask Ilya to reconsider making a G serie along with the K. Either a G6/8 or 10 would be great. I like the G. It's just we currently can only make one variant of the 109, and we picked the K as we have the best data on it.I don't want to make empty promises or vaguely hint at something, but I really liked having multiple variants of the same plane in my older projects. The overall process is much simpler. Once we have the K, making the various Gs and maybe the F should be comparatively simple. Quote: Originally Posted by tintifaxl Don't know, if it has been posted already, but the 100 USD backing reward states: printed manuals for 2 planes, in the description it is only 1 manual. The sidebar description is the most correct.Sorry about the confusion. I'm still unable to edit the description, getting the limit reached error. I guess I'll just honor the bigger rewards in every case, and deliver the maximum or the combination of any two tiers with errors in descriptions. Quote: Originally Posted by zaelu I hope the map can be extended a bit more... we are used to 800+km across map . We can extend the map to the entire globe, but manually adding detail will be extremely hard to do.We can have all of England done for the map in virtually no time, but it'll be a general coastline filled with vague generic field. It really makes no sense to spend time making British airfields if you only have AI bombers; a flyable B-17 will obviously need to have a nice-looking airbase to take off from and return to. Quote: Originally Posted by horseback The size of the map is a bit of a disappointment (expectations can be a biotch), but It looks like we'll get a territory reaching approximately from Cherbourg to Le Havre and a good bit south--assuming that my Google Earth distance thingie is accurate. Still, even in 1944, Normandy was a lot 'busier' than the Black Sea area, especially if they have to make time to create new landmarks, vehicles, buildings, ships as well as the aircraft flight models at the level advertised. The way I understand EDGE - and I have to mention that there is a chance that I can be wrong here - is that we can take an existing map and just drag out the outer edges and extend it by any number of kilometers.Creating generic terrain with a vague coastline and some elevation is not a huge task. Making it look good is. Making it historically accurate, i.e. recreating road networks, landmarks, etc, is a huge huge effort.We could take our existing Normandy and tack on England and Paris and Ruhr and Berlin. Theoretically. It's just it'll either take many man-years to polish every square mile, or we'll end up with some empty generic filler across vast areas.And THANK YOU to all the backers once again.We'll have a new cool video released on Monday morning.I'll be around until then to answer questions, so keep them coming! Edited September 9, 2013 by papa_Osi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 Mmmm...no se no se...yo ya empiezo a estar curado de espanto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papa_Osi Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 Primer update: Good morning, First of all, a giant thank you to all backers and supporters. We are extremely pleased with the initial level of support. However the pace has significantly slowed down over the weekend. We will look to add additional more attractive rewards, as well as provide more content that hopefully draws more people in. We have a short new video this morning that focuses on our relationship with the Fighter Collection, Europe's largest private collection of flying WWII aircraft. We are extremely fortunate to have full access to the aircraft we simulate and the men who fly them. This is something I have not had in my older projects. Becoming involved with DCS made me realize how sorely this was missed. With DCS WWII we will have the best of both worlds, both the most accurate and detailed historical data we can find, and the intangible seat-of-the-pants knowledge. Aircraft modeling in a modern flight sim is incredibly complex. The flight modeling, the aerodynamics, is extremely complicated on its own; and that's just one of the many components that all need to be done well in order to create a good simulation. There are also many internal systems of various complexities: fuel, hydraulics, pneumatics, guns, cannon and other weapons, cockpit gauges, gunsight, the electrical system, and so much more. This is where the help of the real pilots is especially needed. Historical manuals may tell you a few dry steps, but they don't have the real meat: how long it takes the system to respond when you move the lever, or what happens if you don't. These are the things that add both to the project complexity, easily tacking on a couple of extra months for testing and finetuning, and of course to the project fidelity, creating a flight sim that's infinitely more accurate and precise. We are extremely fortunate to have access to the Fighter Collection and many of their friends, and we are infinitely grateful to Nick Grey for his blessing and his support for DCS WWII: Europe 1944. Please watch the video: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian57 Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 (edited) Oño, el tito Oleg por aquí aparece. no vive mal, se le ve que trama algo es en el video del Kickstarter. Edited September 9, 2013 by Julian57 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papa_Osi Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 (edited) WW2 ya se acerca al 57% En el último update hay dos cosas interesantes, la primera es que están pensando mover hacia arriba el B-17 y crear un detallado mapa de la costa sur inglesa para realizar misiones de bombardeo, así como la referencia a los vídeos que quedan por mostrar. http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1867547&postcount=1131 Quote: Originally Posted by baronWastelan That alone would be sufficient to convince many to back a DCS WWII series. Has there been any contact with Boeing to find out the licensing requirements and costs? Quote: Originally Posted by tintifaxl I'd really like to have English airfields to takeoff from and land on. With a brit accented ATC, of course. And wind sacks ^^ I'm starting to think we might need to shuffle things about a little bit.We'll try to change the immediate next stretch goal, and make it a flyable B-17 and British airfields. Move all other stretch goal aircraft one tier up.We'll talk this over and have a decision for you within a day or two.Also going to work on adding some more attractive backer rewards. Quote: Originally Posted by Mogster ROF has a relatively small Channel map, it stops South of London so avoiding the problems surrounding modelling the whole city. People seem very happy with it.http://riseofflight.com/Blogs/post/2...r-22-28th.aspx There were quite a few WW2 airfields South of London. Oh trust me, I'm very familiar with southern England Quote: Originally Posted by tintifaxl * atm we don't have a proper WW2 wingman AI - main point being the wingman needs to stay with the leader all the time. Will RRG or ED work on this? RRG does not currently have a dedicated AI programmer. We could theoretically look into hiring one for this project, which would probably give us tons and tons of cool stuff over the course of the project, but I really don't know how to budget for that. We're already pretty far out there for a stretch goal. I'm kind of cautious about adding too many tiers or too many options. If I add, for example, and intermediate "improved AI" stretch goal, all as a part of all additional stretch goals, that might turn off some other people, and make it seem like the aircraft they really want are too far away.ED has programmers too, of course. We however do not have a current plan for AI improvement. Quote: Originally Posted by tintifaxl * will AI be able to see through clouds in EDGE? (like it is now) No clue at this point. Quote: Originally Posted by Charly_Owl Luthier needs to show us more videos. I'm not talking about small talk in the local coffee shop... I mean Artwork, WIP, anything concrete that stimulates our fertile imagination! I understand he appeals to the passionate flight simmers that we are, but he needs to look further and convince other people by showing concrete examples (pictures and videos, please!) of what these guys are capable of. The current project presentation and fighter collection videos are nice, but they're not gonna cut it. Not by a long shot. This new video is basically introduction part 2. Nick Grey is a hugely important part of this project, but it felt like putting him in the initial video made everything way too long.It's also not about passion but about our relationship with TFC. This has immediate, direct, and unique impact on the product. We have access to the actual aircraft and the actual pilot. That's not sentimentality or small talk at all. These are the precise reasons why DCS: P-51 is the best prop simulation available today.I have another talk video all put together, which I foolishly planned to release as video 3, but I realized the error of my ways while uploading video 2 this morning. Video 3 will be a detailed look at EDGE. Video 4 will be a detailed overview of aircraft modeling in DCS. Video 5 will be a video QnA, and then video 6 will probably be the thing I planned for Video 3.I also have to point out that it's all just me. I write the scripts, I direct, I shoot, I edit, I release, I discuss. I don't have a marketing staff, anything like that. I'm learning as I go. Hopefully I can do enough to reach at least one stretch goal in the next 30 days. Please don't let the fact that I'm not a marketing professional or a filmmaker influence your opinion of myself as a game developer! Edited September 11, 2013 by papa_Osi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala13_Antiguo Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 ....huy después de la empanada que dejaron en el COD .....vuelven a la carga y piden pasta ...anda ya menudo mundo este juasss ... salud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papa_Osi Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 Debo tener un trastorno mental de esos gordos, muy gordos . Oigo P-47, Bf-109, Spit y ya se me afloja la cartera. No obstante me gustaría que saliera adelante, porque el DCS a nivel de la WWII esta muy parado y esta es una buena iniciativa para que empiece a cobrar forma. Aparte nos guste o no, el Il2 1946 es una creación de ellos y es un sim que a todos nos a deparado muchos buenos momentos y en el COD nadie sabe lo que pasó entre bastidores para lanzar lo de esa forma tan chapucera. Ahora con el Team Fusion se esta empezando a ver la potencialidad que tiene este sim. Saludos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vencejo Posted September 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 Trastornaos estamos todos :tease: , pero es que pensar que es posible tener esos aviones mas un cuatrimotor como el B17, todos al nivel de simulación del mustang, pues cómo no comprometer algo de pasta para ayudar al proyecto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papa_Osi Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 (edited) Se confirma lo del B-17. Esperemos que esto se empiece a animar. Sería una lastima que no se alcanzará por lo menos el objetivo de los $100,000, sobre todo por que detrás de estos proyectos no deja de haber un análisis sobre el potencial mercado que puede tener un producto. Si no sale adelante creo que nos tendremos que despedir de tener un sim de la WWII al nivel de DCS. Tendremos el P-51 y el Dora desangelados durante mucho, mucho tiempo. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944 $375,000 Everything at the previous level, plus: A flyable Boeing B-17 Normandy map extended to include Southern England Edited September 12, 2013 by papa_Osi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vencejo Posted September 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 +1 Están al 65% mas o menos ahora. Igual con un arreón final se logra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAFJFA F1 Team Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 Para los que les gusta los molinillos, este proyecto debe ser una gran esperanza para conseguir un simulador de la WWII a niveles de inimaginables hasta la fecha. Ya tienen recaudo casi el 70% del mínimo. A la vista del ritmo que llevan con toda probabilidad lleguen hasta el objetivo. Aunque veo más difícil que lleguen hasta objetivos más ambiciosos. Saludos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amalahama Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 Flipo que hay 6 personas que han puesto 1000$ Saludos! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAFJFA F1 Team Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 Flipo que hay 6 personas que han puesto 1000$ Saludos! Hay gente para todo. Saludos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.